Great Debates - Should a Rebbe Know What His Talmid is Doing on a Saturday Night

1:57 We could be talking about anything But the idea that there's a subtlety, there's a nuance to a topic And especially when you're younger, you generally take extreme positions on these types of things, very kitsune positions, and say, "This is the truth," and "This is the truth." The truth of the matter is that truth is seen in 360 degrees. That's the best way to arrive at truth. For example, when we're learning a Gemara And there's a machlokus between Abaya and Rava, between Rashi and Tosfos, and between the Rambam and the Rashba. They're not arguing as much as they're giving two worldviews that complete the idea. And so, what we're meant to be doing when we learn is we're meant to be trying to understand the underlying unifying principle that they have. And you can only arrive at that by seeing opposing viewpoints. The first thing, just to clarify, is the topic is Rabbi Talmud relationships But there's a meta topic here that I think NCSY Kola wants to communicate to you guys, which is how do we respectfully agree or disagree with each other in a way that informs us from seeing both positions?

3:16 Thirty seconds. What was that? I like that he's got a thing. The listen, rabbayim never keep to the time. I appreciate your attempt. The second thing I think is the Rabbi Talmud relationship, and I'll finish with this. The process of having to formulate these ideas for myself has been one where I struggle with this issue. And really trying to formulate and define a position has not been simple at all. And I feel like I'm very privileged to be sitting specifically with Rav Hershel talking about this topic. I'm still working on coming to clarity in this issue. If it appears to you that I'm struggling with some of the definitions I want to share with you that I am And it's not easy to talk about this because there are really a lot of we'll call it not just technical issues, but really fundamental issues in how to define a modern day Rebbe-Talmud relationship.

4:20 As Reburg said, I feel that. When I first heard the topic, I knew exactly which side I was taking. I think anybody who knows me in the room knows exactly which side I was going to take, and they understood why I would take that side. I thought to myself How can Roberg even take the other side? I know Roberg can keep you guys interested and just explain to you this is a table for forty-five minutes, and I just don't think he has any validity to his side. And I couldn't even understand it. The more I was thinking about it this morning I started questioning myself And I've learned a lot about just over. In fact, I was thinking what I should do is take the other side. I was thinking at one point to take the other side, because I so believe in one side. Maybe I can hear the other side, and I started hearing the second side.

5:13 I think the real definition we're going to be discussing here is what a rebbe is. I think a rebbe has evolved. Over the past twenty years, but for sure, for the past hundred years, what a rebbe is and was is totally different. I think we're going to have to define what a rabbi is. What a rav is And what is a rebbe? And I'm gonna speak out two different reasons Two main reasons for my side. I think a lot of this question is about context, understanding your talmidim, what context does. A rebbe has to have in a talmud's life number one And in terms of a rebbe talmud kasher What does it mean to have a relationship with someone? Do you have to know everything about someone in order to have a relationship with them? Do you have to have your wife know everything about you, and do you have to know everything about your wife in order to have a relationship?

6:07 And I think these are all discussions that need to be had. And I think we're going to all learn a lot tonight, myself included. I see Reuvenberg is very prepared. Ten seconds? You take even thirty seconds or what? Fine. And I think we're gonna have to understand what a kesher is, and that's what we're gonna have to define with the rabbi. Ten minutes on the clock. I'll try and give a two minute warning and a thirty second warning. Ten minute. You go. You respond to me. Not yet. I respond. These are the opening arguments. These are your core argument. Your core argument is the next ten minutes, and then each of you will have a chance to respond. So he wants me to go first for that. You go first. You have ten minutes. I don't know if I need ten minutes. The first thing that has to be clear is that when a Talmud opens up to a Rebbe The reason the Rebbe is listening to his Talmud, and this has to be very, very clear. I was speaking to a Mechaneh. I told a few guys in this room this once before.

7:16 There's a mechanech who I know. He's very close to his talmidim, and he's very much in the school that he teaches in. There's very much an attitude of chilling with the guys. Chilling with the guys. And I said, "How do you build boundaries when you're just chilling with the guys so often? How do they know that there's a reason for you chilling with these guys, as opposed to you just being a guy who likes to chill with the guys?" He responded. That the most important thing, the most fundamental thing I do in the beginning of the year is let them know this is the shita. So whenever a rebbe is listening to a talmud speak, and I'm going to say my side in a second, whenever a rebbe is listening to a talmud speak, there's a reason, and the talmud should know when a rebbe is listening to his talmud speak. But what he did last Saturday night The rebbe has to make it clear. The reason I am listening to you right now, tell me about all the garbage. Maybe it is not because I like the hak.

8:14 It's not because I'm living vicariously through my talmidim; rather, it's in order to enhance the rebbe talmud kasher. I think it is pasuk. The question was: Should a talmid know? Should a rebbe know what his talmud did? Should Almud tell his rebbe what he did on Saturday night? Correct. Think it should a rebbe know. Okay, I think it should a rebbe know. Should a rebbe know? Should a rebbe know what his talmud did? Obviously, there's different types of rebbeim out there. I don't think that a guy who is struggling with shmiras enayim A guy who fails his tests, different tests here and there, I don't think that he's going over to Hershel Schachter to tell him about his struggles with that. It could be some do. I don't think most do. But I do think. That it's very important that a rebbe does know what's going on a Moshe Shabbos, and I'll tell you why. I'll tell you the difference between a Rav Shachter and maybe some other rebbeim out there.

9:19 There are two reasons why a rebbe should know what his talmud did on Moshe Shabbos. Number one is context. A rebbe is hopefully going to be with you for the rest of your life. A rebbe is hopefully going to be there when you need him for different issues. There are many talmidim, and I'm so happy when a talmid moves on to the next stage of his life. He gives me that call before he gets engaged, or he gives me a call when he gets married. Hopefully, talmidim can move on and move on to bigger and better things. But there are many talmidim that will not, and at the point they're in Yeshiva, they need a Rebbe who they can tell everything to. Number one is context. In order to know In order to help somebody, you have to know the context of what's going on in their lives. You have to know who he is. If you don't know that he was struggling with something particular and then that impacts his dating How are you going to help him?

10:05 You have to know the context in order to give a person when you know what's going on in his family life. A rebbe should not pry if the Talmud doesn't want to give over the information. A rebbe does not pry for the information. A Talmud has to feel comfortable with it. But how could you know your Talmud if you don't know what's going on in his life? If you don't know that instead of him being supposed to be learning last night, he was up all night binge watching Binge watching Netflix. If you don't know what's going on, you just see a person who looks uninterested in what's going on and learning. Rabbi has to know who his talmid is and what he's struggling with. That's not what makes the relationship But it's an integral part of what the relationship is. What is in the relationship?

10:51 That's the first reason, and I'm going to elaborate on both of them in a minute. And the second reason, and maybe even the more important reason Is talmidim need to feel safe. They need to feel safe. They need to know people. We have a hard time. Our generation has a hard time opening up to people. We have a hard time letting people know our struggles. We have a struggle. We think it defines who we are. Very often, when a person struggles with looking at inappropriate things, they think that's who they are. I think that's who I am. I am a guy. That's what I struggle with. That's the person I am. And they hold it in. They hold it in. They don't tell people what their struggles are. They don't tell people when I am struggling with going to Minion. They're embarrassed. I'm supposed to be in yeshiva. I'm wasting my year. I'm shugging with shachris. I don't like learning.

11:42 In the Sibashalom, he explains: If you want to know how a talmud is doing You want to know how a person is doing. Ask his rebbe how much he loves him. Ask a rebbe how much you love your Talmud. But if you know if a talmud has if he has the love coming. He's fine. He's fine. He'll be okay. Because we need to feel loved. Everybody needs to feel loved, and unfortunately, for many people, that's one of the biggest struggles people have nowadays: feeling loved, feeling validated. And then sometimes people feel that if they just knew who I really was, they won't love me. They won't value me. If my rebbe knows who I am, if my parent knows, I'm embarrassed. It's not that you have to know what a talman is doing in order to love him But very often when a talman sees, when a talman knows that his rebbe, when a talman knows that his rebbe knows who he is, and he still loves me He really loves me. Very often, you'll end up with children.

12:49 Very often, children will try to Break boundaries or go very close to the line. And one of the reasons that children love to test their parents, which we call it, is because they're really testing your love for them. They're testing: Do you even love me if I do this? Do you love me even if I do that? And when a parent shows their child I love you even with that. I want to correct my words here. It's not about loving your talmidim. It's not about loving your children. Everybody loves their children. Every parent loves their child, no matter what. Even if you're the worst father, you love your child. It's really a question of: Do you like your children? Do you like to be around them? Do you like your talmidim? Do you like to be around them? Do you find them to be pleasant people? Do they feel that they're liked? Do they feel that they're cared about?

13:52 When a talmud can open up to his rebbe and he knows, I can tell him anything. It's not about telling your rebbe. It's not about telling the rebbe. But if a talmud feels that he needs to give over something, the rebbe has to be there for the talmud. The rebbe needs to be there for the talmud. The rebbe needs to know what's going on in his life. The rebbe needs to know that this is what he's struggling with. Because if you don't know that, what do you know? It's as if you go to a doctor. Imagine you go to the doctor today. I went to a doctor. The reason why I was late was I had to go to a doctor. I had to get a little. I didn't know I was getting a procedure today. I went to a plastic surgeon to take something off my face, and I thought they were going to do it later. One of the things they said to me is, 'Do you have any allergies?' Imagine I just held the information back. I don't want to tell you that. Or, do you have any other conditions? And I just lie about that. I have no other conditions.

14:41 How should I have said that to them? I'd be doing myself a disservice. The doctor wouldn't be able to help me properly. They need to know what's going on. A rebbe needs to know his talmud. A rebbe needs to know everything about his talmud. If the talmud wants to give it over A rebbe. Nowadays we use the word rebbe. Back in the day we used to use words like rav Rabbi. I think it's a little bit different. Things have changed. I'm sure I'll have a chance to speak about this in a few minutes. But a rebbe is. One thing I came to terms with a long time ago is that I didn't become a rebbe to teach Gemara. I didn't become a rebbe. Even to teach Torah. I became a rebbe because I love people. And I love helping people. And my goal is that everybody should feel happy, loved, and living a meaningful life.

15:44 And when you have people that are there for you, and you know they'll be there for you no matter what. Are there other ways to show that? Yes. But in this generation, people feel ashamed of their actions. They're ashamed. Never feel ashamed. You need to be inspired. Shame doesn't cause change. Inspiration causes real change. It's not a response. I heard Rev. Herschel say. Two things. I just want to clarify exactly what he said as far as I understood it. Before I state my own opinion here. If Hershel spoke about the Rebbe Talmud relationship That chilling is only there to enhance the Rebbe Talmud relationship, and the Rebbe Talmud relationship is only there to promote growth. The goal of the Rebbe Talmud relationship is to promote growth. Within that context, I heard him say two things. Number one, the Rebbe needs to know who the Talmud is, because if you don't know who the Talmud is, you don't have the proper context in order to help him.

16:53 And number two By giving the Talmud space to feel safe, you can help the Talmud move from shame. Which means I am a bad person because of what I've done, to guilt, to regret, to be a good person who did something that's beneath my dignity or beneath my values. Those are the points I heard him make. I want to respond by saying that I agree with Rav Hershel that the idea here is to define the role of a rebbe. I do think that the role of a rebbe is twofold. Number one, a teacher of Torah. And number two, is a builder of people. I think it's very important that we identify both of those roles because in the evolution of the last several hundred years, and more specifically in the last twenty years I think we are not necessarily doing a great job of balancing both. I think you have rebbeim that are great teachers of Torah.

17:50 And I think you have rebbeim that are great builders of people. But really, a rebbe's responsibility is to be both of those things, and so it's important to understand that one might come at the sacrifice of the other. I'll explain in a moment. Context is important. And there's a dramatic negative impact to context, and I spent a lot of time trying to formulate this idea. Rishlom Frayfeld, the Chetzadik Levrachu, was the founding Rosh Yeshiva of Shaiyoshev. He said that a parent or a rebbe needs to keep one eye open and one eye closed, meaning there's a time to know what your kid is doing. And there's value in not knowing what your kid is doing. What's the value of not knowing? It sounds like you're just sticking your head in the sand, which is why I think Riefeld said it that way. You're paying attention to some things and choosing not to pay attention to the others, and the reason is as follows.

18:50 A lot of negative things get said about you guys. They call you a very soft generation, a generation that doesn't have a lot of resilience. But actually Your generation comes under constant scrutiny. In today's social media world, in the context of the yeshiva league You guys are basically in a state of being judged all the time, which may not be radically different than the way that we grew up. Years ago, there was always an element of judgment, especially at this age, but it's certainly intensified. Everything that you do, everything that you are, is more magnified today. And as a result of that judgment, there's a tremendous amount of fear in the air. And what that fear is, I'm not enough. One of the gifts that a builder of people can give to their talmidim is I see you in the best positive light. And this is the main word that I want to use for today.

19:49 The rebbe talmid relationship has to be aspirational. The job of a rebbe is to challenge a talmid. And that sometimes can come at the expense of creating a safe space for a talmid Because when a rebbe gets up and he gives a shmuuz and he says. This mutter, and this not mutter Or when a rebbe says this is not a hashkafa, that's a Torah hashkafa, and you have that hashkafa. It's not necessarily a safe space; it's a challenging space, and there's an aspiration. We're trying to get you somewhere. We're trying to help you become the next link in the chain of the Jewish people. So that means there's going to be, by definition, challenges and aspirations. That's not a simple thing to be able to do both at once. If a rebbe comes along and he says this is our standard, and he sees you hitting that standard And maybe it's true that rebbe is somewhere in the back of his mind as a hypothesis. I wonder what this kid is doing on a Saturday night.

20:42 But the fact that the rebbe doesn't know means that when you show up to shiur The rebbe looks at you and he says, 'This is a good boy. I see how he participates in shiur. I see how he's trying.' And hopefully, even if the boy is falling asleep, the rebbe says, 'He's falling asleep because he's tired.' Being seen in a positive light is mission critical to growth. Person who sees you negatively, who defines you in a certain way You can't grow in that context. So you'll say, So he'll know what I'm doing on a Saturday night, and he won't see me in a negative light. It's certainly true But what you have to understand is that when you say something undignified about yourself. By definition, there is a tremendous amount of vulnerability. And there is a reason that rebayim are therapists. The rebayim are not therapists, and therapists are not rebayim.

21:38 When you go to a therapist's office, you see the therapist and you say whatever you need to say, the stuff that you are deeply ashamed of. And then you leave. You are not seeing him anymore. You won't see him until next week. It's very hard for a boy to come into a rebbe's office or into a rebbe's sheer room privately and say "I did this on a Saturday night," and then see the rebbe fifteen minutes later, an hour later. Not only is it difficult for the Talmud, it's difficult for the rebbe. Because the rebbe, in his head, even if he's framing it in the most positive light We're now holding space for a particular aspect of this Talmud that's undignified And that doesn't mean chas v'shalom that you should be ashamed. But there is a sense of uncomfortableness that exists, and that is meant to exist because the relationship is aspirational.

22:28 There's another point that I'd like to make. Aside from a rebbe being a builder of people There's a dignity to this relationship. Chazal say, 'Mayr rabcha kamer shamayim.' You should stand in awe of your rebbe. The challenge of what we're doing today, and I think a large part of this is because we have a lot more therapeutic language today than we did before. A rebbe is meant to hit you where you are. He's like getting down in the trenches with you, and there's something very beautiful about that. But also, I've noticed today a trend that I think is very dangerous. A rebbe is becoming a friend. A guy walks down the hall in his high school. And a guy goes over and he pats his rebbe on the back and he goes, "Yo, Rabbi, what's going on? How's everything?" Chilling, Rabbi? It's like you don't speak to a rebbe that way.

23:17 That's a that's a teacher of Torah. We're not talking about giving him covet for his own covet's sake. We're talking about giving him covet because he represents the giving of tithes to you. So there's a tremendous lack of dignity that's come into the Rebbe Talmud relationship. And it's like I've heard guys say What do you mean the Rebbe's here to serve me? You have to eat with your Rebbe. You have to make demands of your Rebbe. It used to be that we ran to serve our Rebbeim. Now the Rebbeim are running to serve the Talmudim. How did that happen? Because we went to try to build guys, and we went down to their level to try to hear everything, so that relationship became very unclear. It's like who is this man that I'm telling everything to? So if the Rebbe has tremendous dignity There's a certain discomfort. You might choose to say it, but there's a certain discomfort. I want to make the following very important split and I'll finish with this.

24:13 There's a difference between a Talmud coming to a rebbe and saying, "I'd like to share with you something" And the question that was asked today: Should a rebbe know what's happening on a Saturday night? Should a rebbe know? The Talmud does not want to tell him. If the Talmud wants to tell the rebbe That's one thing. If the Talmud wants to go to the rebbe and say, "I'm having dating issues" And I also want to talk to you about the challenges of shmiras naim and shmiras habris that I'm having in the context of dating. Even if a Talmud comes and he has dating issues, it might be appropriate for a Rebbe to say "Please feel free to say no." Given the question you're asking me, I'm wondering if we should also be discussing another aspect here. But that doesn't mean that you must know as a Rebbe. It doesn't mean that you should know what's happening on a Saturday night.

25:02 Sometimes you know, sometimes you don't. As we said, there's value in not knowing because it creates a positive environment where the Talmud can be seen for his best self. And number two, it maintains the dignity of the relationship. Rabbi, I'm not saying that we had it right fifty years ago. I'm going with you. I look back at my rabbis and I wish that I had a greater kesha with them when I was in high school. But I never would have gone to slap my rabbi on the back. I never would have called him Yo Rabbi. You refer to your rabbi in the third person. You're not allowed to argue. You're not allowed to have a mariva with your rabbi, the Rambam Paskins. Halachus, the Rambam paskens the halachus of a dignity between a rebbe and a talmud are the oraisa. And today we're so close with the guys that you see there's a certain lack of dignity.

25:53 And I don't want to I want to like push back too much on this point. But I think we can all be moad that Rishcheter is one personality. But then there's something in between. There's knowing that a rebbe, whoever he is, is setting a standard. That's my rebbe, and I look up to him. And even if you're a rebbe who's "quote unquote" chilling with the guys, that separation must be there. If we lose the dignity of a rebbe, then what's the point of the rebbe-talmud relationship? Torah can only be transmitted through dignity. Your rabbi is not okay. Saying, walking over to rebbe Pat him on the back. Coming him playing basketball, picking him up, and slapping him on the rear end. It's not okay, and I've seen it happen. I've seen all that happen. I've heard your rabbi. I've heard. I've seen a pat on the back.

26:50 I've seen them lifting up. Yeah, We're evolving. Us rabbim are figuring it out still, and it may take me until I'm at Mayav Ashmashana until I can actually get that balance down. Nobody's questioning. We have to have that. The fear of your rebbe. Has to be there. You have to. That's what we got to get to. But we're not there yet. We're not holding there yet. When you're trying to save lives You're not thinking. When a lifeguard is running in there You should definitely show them respect. But if you go through pain, EMT is helping you out. You got to show them respect. You need it there. Right now we're talking about. We're in the emergency room here. The world is just so difficult to navigate. I want to tell you something. I think that the reason why the Rebbe Tzamal Kasher has changed and it's involved is not because they were wrong fifty years ago.

27:53 It's because the world was a different world. It was so much easier to navigate. You get a basic mahalach from your rebbeim. You get a basic mahalach from your rebbeim in terms of hashkafa, in terms of how you should act and how to feel, and we just went along with it. Your rabbi tells you when you do an avera, don't get down about it. So now next time the guy has an issue on Saturday night calling it Saturday night but a guy has an issue on Saturday night He knows how to deal with it. He knows how to react. I was told this is what happens. I got training from my rabbi. The world is crazy nowadays. You see it. I'll tell you as a rabbi I once heard from a different mechanic that the generations used to change once every ten years. Once every ten years, a generation would change and be totally different.

28:39 He said, "Nowadays, once every two years." Every two years, new guys. The world is just even as a rebbe. We can't train you now for four years from now, from two years from now. Should you have that? Those boundaries, of course, you have to have those boundaries. But we're and should you have those aspirations? Yes. And as Rav Shachter here and Halavai, that's how we should see our rebbeim. Of course, and we have those people out there. I don't think Rav Shachter would tell you. I don't think Rav Shachter would tell you." You know what Guys, come on. When you have an issue with Shmear Sinai, come speak to me about it. He's going to tell you there's somebody else there for you. I have somebody for you. Are your rebayim therapists? Of course not. It's not our job to be therapists. That's not who we're supposed to be. But when did it become that allowing somebody to open up to you Being close to somebody? And you know what? Being a friend.

29:32 Being a friend. When did that become a therapist? Is your Talmud just your friend? Of course not, and you have to build those boundaries. But And I'm learning how to do that. I'll tell you myself as a Rebbe, I'm still learning, and every year I'm learning something new. But I think that the most important thing that a Talmud needs to have is that safe space. And even if it means you won't be that dogma up here, he'll find somebody else to be that. But your Rebbe Not your Rov, not your Rabbi. Rabbi, somebody you ask family questions too But if you don't even get used to opening up to people, what's going to happen when the Chassvah Shalom? No wonder we have issues. Are you going to be embarrassed? Are you going to feel like I should tell the Rabbi my shul when my kid's going through something? When my wife is having an issue, I'm having an issue. I'm having an issue with B'Tach, and I've lost my job. And the Rabbi tells you

30:25 Don't worry, the Rabbanu Shalom. You just want to tell your rabbi, but really, is there really a rebona shalom? Who's going to feel comfortable saying that? I'm a guy who walks into my shul. I got tzitzis on. I got a yarmulke on. I just don't feel comfortable. It's more important than any in my mind. My belief is that the comfortability having a rebbe is so much more important. See, tell me them send rebbeim coffees. Other rabbi. That proves my point. And. But a rebbe, you have to. The first thing we have to worry about is not worry about the dogma. First, the guy has to become a mensch. A person has to become before you can become a bentora. You have to be a person. You have to be an Adam. You have to be a person who's healthy and feels good about himself. And unfortunately People think the only way to do that is by going to therapy.

31:16 No, a rebbe can do that for you too. So I'll answer that very quick. How long do I have for that? Thirty seconds. One minute. I don't think I have felt myself that has impacted my relationship with the Talmud. Does the Talmud feel something? Maybe a little bit of guilt. Does he feel a little bit awkward, a little bit weird about it? I can't tell you that. I can't tell you what he's thinking. But I don't believe he is. I don't think that impacts him. When a person knows that you're there for them, and you're right, a rebbe can't be everything for you at all times. Rebbe, I don't know that the rebbe has to go ahead and save you from every single issue you're going through. Rebbe is not a savior, but a rebbe is an ear for you. And everything I'm saying to you, I'm not basing it on Chazal. I'm not basing it on psychology. I'm basing it on experience, and my experience has been.

32:24 That person really feels safe. That's the safety you feel. You feel comfortable opening up because you know that in fifteen minutes from now, it won't make any difference, and I'll be able to be there. He'll be able to be there for me. I think rehearsals. That we're treating We're treating patients in a hospital. I would respectfully disagree; I don't think we're in the emergency room. I think we're in the maternity ward. There's a difference between how we treat someone in the emergency room and the maternity ward. In the emergency room, if you're having a heart attack, we rip off your shirt and we put the paddles on, and we do whatever we have to do to stimulate life. But in the maternity ward We have time. We have time to treat the patient with as much dignity as possible, so they can go through what they're going through.

33:13 I want to say this as clearly as possible because I think it's very important, and I don't think the first one meant to say this at all. But I think we have to be very careful when we say that you guys are in danger. You're fine. You're growing, you're giving birth to something new—not only on an individual level, but on a generational level. You guys are really shdagging And so Adraba, I would argue that in a world where things are so undignified And you really have a hard time finding any dignity in the world. It's perhaps more important than ever that a rebbe maintains his dignity. Where does a person look to in the secular world for dignity? To the presidency? It used to be that you could look to the presidency. You can't look to the presidency anymore. I'm reading a secular book about the Kennedy family.

34:01 This is going back into the 60s. The Kennedy family lacked dignity like you can't possibly imagine. And since then, you've seen it go way, way, way down. Where does a person go to see dignity today? The leaders of the world are wealthy people. The politicians of the world are dirty. Today, if anything, the need for a rebbe to be cut above and that you look up to your rebbe, other abba, I believe that's the ultimate antidote. Number one, number two, I just want to be very clear: opening up is not the problem, and I'm not suggesting, nor have I ever suggested That a talmud should not be able to open up to a rebbe. The question that was asked here today was: should a rebbe know what's happening on a Saturday night? If a talmud comes to a rebbe and says, "I need to tell you what happened on a Saturday night." There's nobody that's going to argue that the rebbe shouldn't create space for that.

34:53 The question is, should the rebbe know? And the rebbe knowing I don't believe it's mission critical. The rebbe does not need to know. You are not your worst parts. If we start to frame this as the rebbe needs to know Then I got news for you. That's really saying you are your worst parts. Ravolbi and Ali Shor write that the best way to work on your negative middos is to focus on your positive ones. It's like you can pump fresh water into a swamp. A rebbe seeing a Talmud in a positive light over and over again—that's how the Talmud becomes his best self. In fact, that's what the Rambam writes about Arna Cohen. Arna Cohen just saw people in such a positive light, and he said it to them. He was vocal about it. They said, 'Wow, Arna Cohen sees me that way,' and then they became that.

35:39 So I don't know that we need to focus on the negative. Again, if a talmud wants to say something, that's one thing. I'll finish with this. It is awkward. It is awkward when you open up to somebody. There's something called a vulnerability hangover. You guys have heard of a vulnerability hangover? You never have a really deep conversation with a friend And then an hour later you're like, oh shoot, now he knows that about me. How many times do talmidim come to their rebbeim and open up, and then afterwards they go There's a reason you go to a therapist. He can't tell anyone. A rebbe shouldn't tell anyone either. A therapist exists in a vacuum. You see somebody in an office and then you leave. You go to your rebbe and you're constantly telling him these things. It is awkward, even if the rebbe reframes it, even if the rebbe does an amazing job of keeping a safe space.

36:30 Objectively, it's an awkward thing, and you have to know if you're going to do this. It means that you're bringing that into the relationship. It could be necessary. It might not be necessary. It's for you guys to think about. Should a rebbe know? I don't know. Should a rebbe know? I'm not convinced. If a Talmud wants to say that's one thing. So I want to ask two questions. Each of them is half an hour to respond to those questions. The first one is, and this has been touched on, but I want to talk about it explicitly. Is there such a thing as an ideal Rebbe-Talmud relationship? Chazal talked about a Rebbe-Talmud relationship. Are those Ramah and Chazal obsolete in the generation and don't seem to apply? Is there such a thing as what The Torah believes is the ideal information that we should be striving for in every single generation, or is the moving target the other people in front of us and we respond?

37:24 It's a little bit the dialogue that we've discussed already. As one of the questions was, "How much of the material that I've talked about in the Dvashim class" How much are they released to the world today? So I've been in that. It's actually brought up in the Pesachim. After the destruction of the Beit Hamikdash, do the halachos of Rabbi Talmud still exist in the same way? Some say no. That's a teisus. That's say that the Rebbe, that the halachos that the Rambam brought down don't apply anymore. And obviously, others point out that the Rambam wrote his Sefer of Halachos after the destruction of the Beit Hamikdash. But without getting into the halacha of it, I'll certainly say this: just like there's no ideal marriage. There's no ideal friendship. There's no ideal Rebbe Talmud relationship. Every Talmud needs something different, and frankly, every Rebbe needs something different.

38:18 Not every Rebbe can deal with every Talmud. As much as Rebbeim might want to believe that, it's not true. Some people like certain Rebbeim; they have an affinity to them, and others don't, and that's okay. So no, I don't believe that there's an ideal. However, I do believe that there are certain core principles. And the core principles cannot and should not be violated. For example I've been highlighting this idea that a rebbe needs to be aspirational. I think if a rebbe is not aspirational, he's not a rebbe. If a rebbe is not dignified, and if he doesn't have a dignified talmid, the relationship with his talmidim is inappropriate. You literally see rebbeim who are going to wake up the guys and it's like, what are you doing? You're not a vecher. Have it again. Maybe there's room for it, but maybe there's room to send a guy, and when a guy comes, sit him down and say, "What's going on?"

39:07 But if a rebbe becomes a vecker In a certain way, He's not a rebbe; he's a vecker. He's a madrich. Very exacting version. I'm in a minute. My initial reaction was exactly what Reuven Berg said, which is, "No" You can't do everything. There are certain parts of a rebbe that need to sometimes hear the not dignified things. And know the not dignified things. I don't think the shechter is necessarily. He is, I'm sure, with every guy. And I thought about it more as Reuven Berg was speaking. I actually changed my mind. I think there And it's just repeating my same idea. That the ideal rebbe is a rebbe that cares for his talmidim and cares about their rochnis and their gashmis And he's there for them when he needs them. And yes, that's a rebbe. Is that also a parent? Is there an ideal parent? Yes.

40:19 No parent is perfect. Nobody would ever tell you in parenting there's such a thing called a perfect parent that doesn't make mistakes. But there is something called There is an idea. There's no perfect parent. There's an ideal parent, which is unconditional love. I think a rebbe who cares for his talmidim and shows them unconditional love While looking out for their ruchnias and cares about yerushaim, that's an ideal rebbe. Second question. We'll head to closing arguments. Our generation As they've alluded to and even explicitly mentioned As a generation that's been called soft. Not resilient, and it seems like there's a trend of entitlement amongst Talmidim. And how much is the current state of the Rebbe-Talmid relationship in your position? How much does that give you a fear of coddling the fact that that's going to perpetuate a certain entitlement amongst Talmidim? And what are the ways that even within the context of a relationship of Talmidim opening up to Rebbe Unlike the From Europe of the nineteen hundreds, how much are we going to be behind a lack of coding?

41:38 In a minute, sir, for I guess your first question. Let me do the first one first. I want to be clear. We're talking about. I want to be just clear to everybody. We're speaking about. The stage in life where you're sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, maybe up till twenty, maybe a little bit further along. Imagina un rebbe. Un talmud dice a un rebbe. He needs the coddling. We'll just say it that way. He needs the coddling. And a rebbe doesn't give it to him. You can argue maybe he doesn't need the coddling. Maybe you can argue that we don't need the coddling But the guys themselves feel like they do need the coddling. And to be there for them That's our job. Is it hurting? Is it helping? I don't think it does either one. I think this is the generation we're living in. If it's not emergency room, we're for sure at war.

42:34 We're on the front lines of war. On the front lines of war When you're in battle Yes? Whatever the guy needs, you ask what he needs. If he needs some painkillers, he needs whatever it is. If he—sometimes even your commanding officer, you may yell out a little bit when you shouldn't have. But you're at war. I just want to hear the first line of the question. That's why. How much was the coddling impacting the relationship? No. How much of the current rabbinical relationship perpetuates coddling, and how much does the current state perpetuate it entirely? Listen. There's always these other yeshivas after we pass on to our yeshiva, and sometimes the repayment other institutions will say to us, well, you gave us talmidim like this. You coddled them. You may have done this, and now they need to be a little bit more mature. Our answer is: that's what they needed at the time.

43:32 What a Talmud needs at the time, you give it to him. Will it perpetuate something? That's maybe the next stage. If that's what they need I think the goal of any Rebbe, any parent Anyone who's raising youngsters, the goal is independence. Ashalheves olamele: A flame is only lit when it can stand on its own. Which means that we have to have a balance. On the one hand, we have to provide support, and on the other hand, we have to ask you to reach for something that you're incapable of doing. As an example If a yeshiva provides a tremendous amount of support, that's awesome, but it also means that the talmud has not developed the muscles necessary in order to do something on his own. If a guy can't sit through a three-hour morning seder on his own with a chavrusa. Then how's he going to be able to sit in shteik?

44:23 At some point, you guys have to be challenged to do things. There's no doubt that because we provide so much support. The guys are not as capable. And yes, we can't be afraid for a talmud to fall. A guy might look at it three hours later and he go, I can't do it. That's fine. So you'll try and you'll fail. And I believe that our talmidim have enough resilience to pick themselves up. Obviously, we can't let them do it by themselves completely. But we have to hit that balance. That's the key. In terms of entitlement, there is no doubt in my mind that we have created and we are responsible for this. We've created a situation because of this thing called edutainment, where you guys are not getting the intense education that you're supposed to be getting. A rebbe has to be a comic. A rebbe has to be funny. A rebbe has to do it. Otherwise, guys will fall asleep. Even now. So you have to work as hard as you can. And then the guys go, I didn't like it.

45:21 What happened to teaching the guys? They have to strive for it. And the expectations are like a rebbe is providing a service, and I am a client. We've literally heard that. You hear it even in camp here. I paid this amount for camp. How come I'm not getting this? Is it part of growing up to push through the hard times? What coach would you want to be your friend? You don't want a coach who's your friend if you want to win. You want a coach who's going to push you to the max. It doesn't mean he can't be friendly, but there's going to be a time where a coach sits you down and says, "You're not doing it." That's a great coach. Speaking of pushing to the max, we're going to have a minute and a half of ending arguments, and then Max is going back to the room before chapter eleven. You get smicha for that joke. Did you say pushing to the max? Because that's congratulations.

46:10 That is an awful joke. Man, I don't mean that in a negative way. I get nachas from that. So a minute and a half of closing arguments. Closing arguments then. That was the question. I want to be clear. Nobody ever said the question wasn't either. Should a rebbe hear from his talmidim every last thing he's done? The question was, should rebbe know? In some instances, a rebbe maybe it's better the rebbe doesn't. There are instances where Talmud really feels I can't say it, Rabbi shouldn't be Shouldn't pull it out of him. There doesn't have to be The vulnerability Rabbi needs to know. Rabbi has to understand this Talmudim. Independence is necessary, but that was the point I was bringing out: the people used to have so much more independence. The world was easier to navigate. We're in such a difficult world. We need We need ways to tell us not just overall. You used to be back in the day. We used to look at a big map. You have an idea, okay? You take I-95 for that much, and then around there you'll hit this. And you used to take a big fat map out. Remember when you were a kid, your parents used to go on road trips with a big map. Nowadays you need ways down, three hundred feet, two hundred feet, one hundred feet.

47:27 That's the world we live in. And of course, talmidim need resilience. That's the most important thing you can give to a talmid, which is resilience. One hundred percent, our talmidim need resilience. They need to be given the ability to get to resilience. We can't just tell them to be resilient. That never works. You have to teach them how to be resilient. A rebbe needs to know the context of his talmidim. He needs to know who they are and what they're struggling with. I want to help you. I need to understand you. I'm your doctor, actually a doctor, but just like a doctor needs to know every detail, the rebbe needs to know. But most important, the rebbe, a talmid has to feel that my rebbe cares about me. He's there for me. He loves me. I think the point Rev. Herschel keeps making, and the point where I'm pushing back on, is that Rev. Herschel keeps saying this is the context, and you need to know who they are in order to help them.

48:18 My ultimate response is: This is not who you are. What you did on a Saturday night is not who you are. It's something that you did. And it doesn't define you. Being seen in that positive light might be much, much more beneficial to the Talmud than the Rebbe knowing. Again, we're not talking about the Talmud opening up. The Rebbe knowing what the Talmud did on a Saturday night. Of course, there are times when the Rebbe would need to know. But most times you don't need to know, and most times you could see that Talmud in a positive light, and that's much better for the Talmud than the Rebbe knowing. So we both agree that we're trying to treat the Talmud. I want to finish by saying what you saw here today was a beautiful thing. This is called the Machlokas L'Shem Shamayim. A Machlokas L'Shem Shamayim has no kiyum, but a Machlokas L'Shem Shamayim has kiyum. Rav Hershel and I are not disagreeing fundamentally. I learned a lot from listening to Rav Hershel today, and I'm sure you guys did also.

49:08 But having a 360-degree worldview of this means that you can walk out of here and you might walk out confused. You might walk out of here and go, I don't know I agree with Rehersel. I agree with Reberg. It's good to listen to both sides. If you're a person who listens to both sides and you can appreciate that both sides have truth, a lot of healing will happen in your own life, and a lot of healing will happen in the world. We live in a world today where nobody listens to each other. So this was an excellent example of how we can have kiym in ourselves and kiym in the world around us.