To Hit The Rock Or Not To Hit The Rock: A Meditation On Leadership

2:11 And I think we make a very big mistake because we think like we look at Rabbi Benowitz and we look at Rabbi Cutler and we look at Rabbi Bashefkin and all the amazing people that are going to be here this Shabbos. Of Judah, and then we think to ourselves, that's leadership because they're leading hundreds of people, maybe thousands of people. So that's leadership. But this isn't leadership. Leadership isn't sitting with two NCS wires and sitting and talking. That's not leadership. That's just being a good advisor. But that's wrong. Every single one of us is a leader if you understand truly what the definition of a leader is. So then it becomes obvious to you that every single one of you is going to be a leader this summer. So tachlis, what do we? What does it mean? I want to share with you. I know the hour is late. I want to share with you just what I feel is a very beautiful idea.

3:01 Moshe Rabbeinu hit the rock. In fact, he hit the rock twice. And because of this, Moshe Rabbeinu's punishment is that he's not allowed to go into Eretz Yisrael with Klal Yisrael. And so, a tremendous amount of questions. We're going to go through them very quickly on what exactly was going on over there. First of all, let's talk about a very posh question first. Moshe Rabbeinu had what's called aspaklaria mi'iru. The Gemara says, 'What does aspaklaria mi'iru mean?' It means he had perfect clarity of vision. So when a regular navi would get a nevuah from Hakadosh Baruch Hu It comes through the lens of the ego. The way we see the world is always through the lens of our own ego. Isn't that true? Have you ever had a conversation with somebody where you're having a totally different conversation than the other person because you have your own ego and your own bias. You're coming into the conversation. There's an amazing key in Peelsk about this. WhatsApp. Have you ever seen it? I know you've seen it. It doesn't matter. If I've seen it, you've seen it. It's two people having a WhatsApp conversation. Because it's on WhatsApp, each person can read it the way they want to read it. Everything in the world is coming through the lens of our own ego and our own bias.

4:07 Moshe Rabbeinu had aspaklariyam eira. He gave the Torah because he had no bias. So if Moshe Rabbeinu had no bias, and Hakadosh Baruch Hu tells him, speak to the rock, and it will give out water. How could Moshe Rabbeinu hit the rock? That's the first question. Second question: Why did he have to hit it twice? If it's going to work, which we're going to get to in a second, if it's going to work, so then why do you have to hit it twice? Hit it the first time, and then already it should come out. Not only that, but if it's a miracle, then it seems like it does work. Hakadosh Baruch Hu tells him, "Speak to the rock." Moshe Rabbeinu hits the rock. He hits it twice. Water comes out of the rock. If Moshe Rabbeinu was doing the wrong thing, then no water should have come out. The miracle should never have occurred. And even if the miracle is going to occur, now water is going to come out of the rock. So why such a severe punishment? We don't think we understand, and we really should take a second just to digest this.

5:05 Do we really understand what it meant to Moshe Rabbeinu to come into Eretz Yisrael with Klal Yisrael and to lead them? That's something that Hakadosh Baruch Hu took away from him. That's a huge deal. What does it mean that Moshe Rabbeinu hit the rock? He should have spoken to the rock. He hit the rock twice. If it wasn't supposed to work, why did it work? And if it worked, why such a severe punishment? There's an unbelievable medrash in Yalkut Shimoni. And the medrash says, in order to understand this story, you need to go back forty years earlier. To an episode that looks exactly the same, Klal Yisrael comes out of Mitzrayim. Immediately, they're confronted with the fact that they don't have water. And this time, Hakadosh Baruch Hu commands Moshe Rabbeinu to do what? Hit the rock. The Medrash right away is contrasting. Why did Moshe Rabbeinu hit the rock forty years later? Because forty years earlier, what did Hakadosh Baruch Hu tell him to do? Hakadosh Baruch Hu told him to hit the rock.

6:05 He hit the rock, so I hit the rock. But still, we're not there yet. Because forty years earlier, Hakadosh Baruch Hu told them to hit the rock. Forty years later, Hakadosh Baruch Hu told them to speak to the rock. So the Medrash says an unbelievable yosaid in chinuch. There is a time in chinuch that sometimes you need to hit. I'm not speaking physically here. Sometimes we have an approach of hitting, and it's appropriate, especially when somebody's younger. And sometimes you have an approach of speaking. And Moshe Rabenu The mistake that he made is that he conflated what he was supposed to do forty years earlier with what he was meant to do forty years later. So I want to take a second and spell this out because it's a very important nakuda. There are two types of leadership. The first type of leadership is what I'm going to call authoritative, not to be confused with authoritarian. Authoritarian is like Stalin. It's a terrible thing, but authoritative chinuch makes a lot of sense in the right context with the right people. What does authoritative chinuch look like? When your little child does something dangerous, it is not a smart idea. When I say little, I mean really little. It's not a smart idea to sit down and try to explain to them why this is a bad idea.

7:31 Because it's not something they necessarily understand. You don't have to have a dialogue with your three-year-old about why crossing the street without an ima or an aba is a bad idea. You just say, 'You never cross the street without an ima or an aba. It's very dangerous.' You don't have to start telling them because you're going to get hit by a car and then your whole body is going to be exploded. You don't need to have that conversation with your three-year-old. It'll give them nightmares. But at the same time, if your kid says, 'But I think I can handle it,' what's the response? It's very dangerous to cross a street without an ima or an aba. But then there's another side of leadership, and that's called communication. Very often, what I hear, especially from eighteen-year-old young men in yeshiva, is they're complaining, rightfully, that at fourteen, fifteen, and sixteen years old, maybe even at seventeen years old, they were getting the same chinuf that they got when they were six and seven years old. I'll tell you how it sounds. They don't express it that way. This is the way they say it. I want to know why I'm doing what I'm doing.

8:40 I don't just want to be taught what to do. I want to know why I'm doing what I'm doing. What's the value of saying that? The value of saying that they're saying for so long I've had an authoritative chinuch And what I wanted was to be in a dialogue. I wanted to be in a communication. I wanted to have a voice. I wanted to be able to object. And to understand why my objections were wrong, I wanted to feel like I was in a conversation with someone that's listening. I didn't have that. So I'll never forget. In tenth grade, I was in a particular shir. It doesn't matter who the rebbe was. He's a wonderful person. I think, in this case, he may have made a chinuch mistake. And I had done something wrong. I was talking during davening. It's not the right thing to do. So the rebbe decided that the best chinuch approach for me in that time.

9:27 Was he pulled the shulchan aruch off the shelves, and he sat down with me, and he said to me, "It's usher to talk in davening. I want to show you the halacha." So I looked at him and I said, "You don't think I know that it's wrong to talk during davening? The problem is not that I don't know right from wrong. The problem is I don't care. So you're sitting here showing the shulchan aruch. It doesn't matter if it's black on white in the shulchan aruch. The shulchan aruch is not interesting to me right now." What you should be having, and this was what I told him, even in tenth grade, he thought I was being a mechutzef, and I was, but I was trying to make my point to him. You're sitting here and telling me this is wrong. I know it's wrong, but tell me why I should care that it's wrong. Have a deeper conversation. The approach he was taking with the tenth grader was authoritative. The approach he should have taken, in my opinion, was communicative. Tell me why what's happening is wrong. These are the two approaches that are constantly confronting us whenever we're being mashpia on anybody, whenever we're having a conversation about leadership. What we're really talking about is influence.

10:30 See, what happens is if you start to look at the research. I encourage you not to because it's a waste of time. Whenever you start to look at the research, when they talk about leadership, they always focus on motivation. And motivation is that's management speak. That has nothing to do with leadership. It's not a question of motivation. It's a question of influence. And what influence means, and this is really important, what influence means is that I'm sharing with you an ethic that I think can change your life. And I want to have that communication with you because when I give it to you. And we discuss it and we battle it out and we go through the whole process together of really understanding it. Not only am I the leader going to be changed because I've had the opportunity to give this over and I've had the opportunity to learn from that person and be influenced in turn. But also, you're going to be a better person for having this. And that's an amazing gift that you can give to people. And when you think in your own lives and think back. Take a second, do it now. Think about the people in your life that had the greatest impact on you. What was it? It was the influence that they had. Not necessarily the words that they said only.

11:35 But the type of person that they were. When they say to you, "This is important." If you respect who they are deeply, what does that do to you? It changes you. It's like, okay, well, wait a second. That's the type of person I look up to. That's the type of person I want to be like. So if they think something, it's worth listening. And then as you listen to it, it changes you. And that's an amazing gift. And every one of you has the opportunity to give that this summer. But you have to know who you're speaking to. You have to know what exactly they need. Do they need authority, or do they need communication? And you're always going to have this challenge. Take for example a young man in NCSY Kol. Who doesn't want to wake up in the morning? It happens every once in a while. I don't know if you can remember. It happens every once in a while that a guy doesn't want to get up in the morning. He doesn't want to go. He doesn't want to go to Minyan. Are you speaking to some TJJ kid and there's some like blockage there? And so your natural gishah will be, You have to do it because everybody is doing it. And there's an authority that you're saying there.

12:36 You're like everybody's doing this now, and we need you to participate as part of the group. There is a space for that, but if it remains there and it doesn't mature and it doesn't progress, you've lost something. You've lost a tremendous opportunity to share. When we think about Moshe Rabbeinu Instead of thinking about Moshe Rabbeinu, let's think about who Moshe Rabbeinu was trying to influence. That by itself is going to change our entire attitude. In leadership, if you go online and start looking at leadership, all they talk about is the leader. But in Yiddishkeit, what we focus on are the followers. We focus on the Talmidim and Talmidot. That's where we're focusing. Let's look at Moshe Abinu's relationship with Klal Yisrael. Let's start at the beginning. He's a Mitzri himself. That's who he is. He's grown up in the palace. The Torah describes him as a Mitzri. Yosef HaTzaddik was always called an Ivri. Moshe Abin was a Mitzri. And he left Paro's palace. And what does he do? He goes out vayetzay al echov. He goes. He's one of them. You understand when they leave Mitzrayim? It's not just Klal Yisrael is leaving Mitzrayim. It's Moshe Rabbeinu is b'toych amcha. He's leaving. He's saying we're all being we're leaving together. That these they were his. Moshe Rabbeinu was the same one that said mecheni na misifracha.

13:57 Erase me from the Sefer Torah if you're going to destroy these people. What does that mean? Moshe Rabbeinu is saying something unbelievable. He's saying I'm with them. If they didn't have ira and you're not willing to forgive them, don't start over again with me. I'm with them. That's the type of leader Moshe Rabbeinu was. But they had a slave mentality. A slave mentality means you have no das of your own. It's like a little child. We don't appreciate the psychology of what Klal Yisrael was going through when they left Mitzrayim. Stop and think for a second. You were enslaved for 210 years. You were a 10 year old coming out of Mitzrayim. So you say I'm only 10. You grew up with it. I was talking to Jonathan Glicksman earlier tonight. He was telling me the world has changed. A year ago, if NCSY would call up the local police department and say we'd like to hire policemen to come stand guard at our doors while we run an event at an arcade, the police force would say, why do you need that? And now, after the Pittsburgh Tree of Life shooting and after the Chabad of Poway, if he calls up and says

15:10 We have a Shabbat tone in the middle of Yehuditzville for twenty-five dollars an hour. The cops are going to sit there, and it's a davar pashen. Why? Because the world has changed. What I'm wondering is, what's the long-term impact of that? Not the impact in five years from now or in ten years from now. What's the long-term impact of being forget a Jew for a second? Because even Muslims and Christians have to deal with this. What's the long-term impact of a generation that grows up with armed guards standing at the door of places of worship? How is that going to impact our psyche? Because it's not one generation; it's one generation and how that generation impacts the next generation. So you can imagine what it was like to be a ten-year-old growing up in Eretz Yisrael. What did you know as a ten-year-old growing up in Eretz Yisrael? You knew one thing: I'm a slave. My father's a slave. My grandfather's a slave. My great-grandfather was a slave. Two hundred and ten years. We've been here forever. Slave mentality. They come out into the desert. They say, 'What do my shabenu? We're going to die. We need water.'

16:12 So my shabenu hits the rock. Why does my shabenu hit the rock? Because that's what was appropriate for them. They were keilu, like they were little kids. What they needed was an authority. Hit the rock. It was a chinuch lesson. You got to hit the rock, and something miraculous will come out. There'll be water. Hakadosh Baruch will be will provide for us. The amazing thing is if you look at the psukim, and you're sensitive, and you have to read the psukim with a sensitive ear. If you look at the psukim from the original time that Moshe Rabbeinu hit the rock, you'll notice Hakadosh Baruch Hu tells him hit the rock. With which staff, the staff from the yar, the same staff that you punish the Mitzrayim with, because it was a staff that was defined by the gollas of Mitzrayim. So the entire idea was to take them out of the gollas of Mitzrayim. That was the leadership they required. How many times does Moshe Rabbeinu need to hit the rock? Once. If it's the authority approach and it's appropriate, you only need to say it once. If you have to say it twice, you've already lost your authority. That's why, if you start to yell at a little kid and the little kid is standing there defiantly

17:14 What do you have to do? You have to ratchet it up. You have to ratchet up the volume because it's not working. Meisher Abenu, when it was appropriate, how many times does he have to hit the rock? Once. With which staff? With the staff of the Gallas of Mitzrayim. That's who he was speaking to. But forty years later, Meishah Abeno made a mistake. When we say Meishah Abeno made a mistake, we have no idea who Meishah Abeno was. When Meishah Abeno makes a mistake, that's a lesson for us to learn. But for us, that would be like the greatest act of tzedkus. Meishah Abeno did make a mistake here. The Rebbe Rashab explains. Forty years earlier, they were an enslaved generation. Forty years later, they were born in the midbar. The mistake that Moshe Rabenu made is that he didn't realize they had grown up.

18:06 He didn't realize they weren't the same people. When Hakadosh Baruch Hu tells him to hit the rock to speak He refers to Moshe Rabenu's staff. This time he doesn't refer to it as the staff of the Yaar. It's just Moshe Rabenu's staff. He says, 'Speak, communicate. That's what they need.' The Rebbe Rashab points out that there's two words for a rock in Lashon Hakodesh. What are the two words for a rock? Tsur and Sela. Tsur means a rock that has no water, no condensation inside the rock. Sela is a word that means there's condensation inside the rock already. Forty years earlier The Torah refers to it as a tsur. Forty years later, it's a Sela. And if you spell out the word Sela, Samach Lamed. If you spell out the word Zella, yeah. So Samach is spelled out Samach Mem. The middle letter is Mem. Lamed, the middle letter is Mem. And I in the middle letter is Yud. So what does it spell out? It spells out Mayim. Zella has Mayim inside of it. So Hakadosh Baruch Hu is saying they're not the same people. They're not the same people. You know they're not the same people.

19:19 There's water inside of them. It's not going to be the same type of miracle. You don't need to hit them to get the water out. You just need to speak to them, and it'll come out naturally. But I want to suggest what I believe is a beautiful chiddush. If you look at the pesukim forty years earlier, Moshe Rabbeinu comes to Hakadosh Baruch Hu and he says, "If I don't give them water, eid maat, a little bit longer, and they're going to give me skila, they're going to stone me to death." Forty years later, Moshe Rabbeinu doesn't say that to Hashem. He's frustrated with them, but he doesn't say they're going to kill me. You know why? Because even Moshe Rabbeinu didn't realize. He didn't pick up on it. Even sometimes the words that come out of our mouth, we don't even realize what we're saying and how true it is. Forty years earlier, Moshe Rabbeinu said, "They're an enslaved generation. They're going to kill me." Forty years later, Moshe Rabbeinu says

20:06 They're just out of control. But he himself is no longer in danger. They're not the same people. Dalif neim mi atah omed. That's the number one thing you need. You're talking to somebody. Who were you talking to? Leadership is about the person you're talking to. It's not about you. And to the degree that it is about you, is the degree that you won't be successful. If it's about you, I guarantee you you'll fail. Think back to the people in your life that influenced you. You knew their geyva better than they knew their geyva. And if they were pure people, and if they were people that were working on themselves and authentic, integrity-driven people. Do you remember how you were attracted to them? It wasn't because they were great speakers. It was because they were great listeners. It's because they authentically cared about you. So Hakadosh Baruch Hu tells Moshe Rabbeinu, it's not a punishment.

20:58 You can't be the one to take them into Eretz Yisrael. Why? Because you see them as they always were and you don't necessarily see them as they are now. You have to let them grow up. You have to recognize that they've grown up. They say a maysa that the Vilna Gaon applied to be the Rava Vilna and he was rejected for the job. The Vilna Gaon, today everyone says he's a genius. We throw out the term genius like it's nothing. The Vilna Gaon was an actual genius. How could he have been turned down for the job? The story goes that the elders of Vilna explained to the Vilnogayn, 'You have to understand. We saw you when you were a little kid. It's hard. It's hard when you see somebody growing up as a little kid, as a five-year-old, as a six-year-old, as a seven-year-old, running around the neighborhood. It's hard to then be makabel that same person as your rebbe. So they couldn't give him the job. But what a chaval! What a terrible waste! You had the Vilnogayn, and you didn't make him your rav. Why? Because you couldn't mature enough to see him differently.'

22:10 I'll tell you a true story, a failure of my own. In yeshiva, one year, there was a boy in yeshiva, and like many boys, came to yeshiva. He was a good guy, a solid citizen, but sometimes boys make mistakes. It happens. So in the beginning of the year, he made a mistake. He got in trouble. Beseder, everyone moved on. The kid is having a great year. He's davening and learning. He's doing great. Chazal tell us that whenever a person does an aveir, it's a ruach shdus, a crazy thing. One night he made a bad mistake. It was like February, so I had to call him in. That's my job. You can't do that. I said something. It came out of my mouth. I'm embarrassed. Arayemez that it came out of my mouth. I said to him. I'll be honest with you. I'm just surprised we're having this conversation. I thought you had changed. And then I saw the look on his face as soon as I said those words. I crushed him. I crushed him with those words. What a terrible thing for a rebbe to say to a talmud. He had changed. He made a mistake. The fact that I said that in a certain way meant I didn't really believe that he had changed. Because if I really believed he had changed, I never would have said it.

23:36 It's usher to remind a person of their previous averes. There's an isser. People do it all the time, especially when rabbanim become like khoshiv. There's always that one guy that like grew up with him. They say like, "Oh yeah, I remember him when he used to like go to town every Thursday night." And like, "Thanks for telling everyone." You know, there's some gishmak that people get. I don't really understand what it is, but there's a gishmak that people get of calling rabbis by their former English names. Like we, it's a strange thing. Jews have certain things that are just very strange. Things that are very gishmak to us that are very strange. I don't know if in the gentile world they have these things. Do you know how much pleasure people get out of correcting a balkoray?

24:20 It's like the sickest pleasure in the world. It's vayomer. Thanks. I'll tell you a true story, Rabbi Bender. This is not much a true story, Rabbi Bender, Rashiva of Darkei Torah. There was a boy who was learning his bar mitzvah parsha and doing a terrible job. You ever go to those bar mitzvahs where the kid is like, and it's not his fault. He's thirteen. He's like, barely this high. His voice is cracking every other second. He's in front of like, five hundred people. His parents have been pressuring. You have to know the parsha perfectly. He gets up there. It's just terrible. And then you have this group of people that are just like chomping at the bit because they're very frum. They're chomping at the bit to destroy this child. It's like every mistake. There's a gabbai there for a reason. Every mistake. We're jumping all over it. We're gonna kill the kid. Rabbi Bender was there at this darkei kids bar mitzvah. He's sitting and leaning, and he's getting destroyed. And Rabbi Bender is becoming more agitated every single time they correct him. He's becoming more agitated. And finally, Rabbi Bender just calls out. The next time he made a mistake, and everyone corrected, Rabbi Bender screams out, "Kill him!"

25:21 And everyone got silent. He goes, "Murder him! He's doing a terrible job. Murder him!" And everyone's dead silent. And he goes, "Why? You think what you're doing is any different?" There's some sickish smack that people get from correcting a balcori. There's a sickish smack that people get. You know, his name used to be Matt. I knew him when he was Matt. Thanks. What is that? You know what it is? We don't let people change. It's very possible that this summer you're going to be with them for a month or six weeks. In some cases, it's quite possible that the person you meet on day one is fundamentally going to be a different person six weeks later. The best chance they have of doing that is if you'll be open to the change. If you look at them and say, just because this is who you are right now doesn't mean that is who you have to be, and then you'll allow them to become whatever version of themselves it is that they want to be—more passionate about their Judaism.

26:23 Hopefully, perhaps more observant, more connected, more learned, more inspired, whatever the word is. Whatever it is that they want, if it happens, it'll be because you didn't box them in. Because you didn't say this is who you are. This is the avodah that happens on interviewing. You go on an interview. I have to do this regularly for yeshiva. Some of you have had to sit through interviews with me. And you hear the same ridiculous answers every single year. You sit down with a young man and you say, 'So why do you want to come to Israel?' And they all answer, 'Well, right now I don't want to learn, but I want to learn. I don't know if I want to, but I want to.' Everybody has their version of that answer. I feel like I really want to grow. Does anybody know what that word means when they're 17 years old? I know it means one thing for the seminary girls. I know it means a different thing for the yeshiva guys.

27:19 I'm not making any comments. I'm just saying. If you know what I'm saying, I'm not saying. If you know what I'm saying, I'm just saying. It means something different. I know it means something different, right? But you're sitting there with a kid, and what you're really doing is you have like whatever it is the twenty-five, thirty minutes that you're sitting with that kid to ask yourself one fundamental question: Is this kid going to do it? And then you have to ask yourself, will I have the capacity to work with this kid to allow him to go on that journey? Will he himself have the capacity to do that? It's an incredible thing. Rabbi Ben, if it's said to me, I will close with this. It's an incredible thing. When you think about Klal Yisrael In a certain way, it's very easy to give up hope. You speak to a cynic and they talk about Klal Yisrael. It's very easy to give up hope.

28:18 How many Jews are in the world? Twelve million Jews in the world. It's not that many of us. And how many of us are really dedicating our lives to serving Hashem? It's a fraction of a fraction. And then you think about even within the Orthodox community of people that are dedicating their lives to Hakadosh Baruch Hu. How many people are actually doing it? And the challenges that we have with today's youth. And then you come to a Shabbaton, like this one, and you look out. And I think over Shabbos they said there's about 600 people here for Shabbos. Six hundred people. Six hundred people is a lot of people. Six hundred leaders, six hundred people that are dedicating, if not their lives, at least this summer, to thinking about how they're going to be leading other Jews to get closer to Hashem. That is an unbelievable thing. This is my first time. I usually do this one in Israel. Francie, yes, Yisrael. I've never flown into America for the Shabbos before. It's my first time.

29:21 I'll be honest with you. I was a little overwhelmed. The last time I was in this hotel was for a wedding. The time before that was in 1997, for winter regional of my senior year. It was a different Shabbos experience for me then, my senior year. Don't have to go into details, but we didn't have an advisor in our room. There was an oversight, and we didn't have an advisor in our room. Fine, but say this: I come back to the hotel, and it's whatever it is, 20 some odd years later. I arrived this morning, and we come in, and the front desk. I remember the way the hotel looked, and I'm like, it's crazy to be back here in such a different headspace. And then I was sitting and watching. I was just sitting and watching, all of you guys just walking through the lobby over there. Everyone's hanging out with each other, and everybody's talking to each other, and there's a feeling of excitement in the room.

30:11 And then you're breaking up, and you're going with your different programs. I'm just like sitting there, this is incredible. This is really incredible. And I really understood for the first time what Rabbi Benavitz meant when he said to me earlier today, "The future of Klal Yisrael is very bright." Why? Because we know not what it is, but we know what it could be, and we're putting ourselves out there with tremendous dedication. My bracha to all of us this summer, and I beshrach Hashem. I'm hopefully going to see you this year. My role has been a little expanded, so I'm going to be in NCSY Kollel at night. I'm officially there to speak to any bus that will have me, to any of the TJJ buses or Giv or Ice or Built or Jolt. It's amazing all the programs. So I'm going to hopefully, Beis R' Hashem, I'm going to see you.

31:02 I want to give a bracha to all of us that we have the capacity to see these kids for who they are, not just for the way that they act, but for who they really are. To give them that space of compassion and kindness. Of gentleness to be able to let them discover who they are, and then to go along with them for the ride. Don't peg them. Don't go on day one and go, 'Oh, that kid. I know it right away. I know that kid.' You always see that, by the way, in yeshivas. On the first day, you always have certain rebbeim. They're standing off to the side. And they're like making calls. It's like a I'll put twenty bucks down. That kid is the kid that gets in trouble in the first two weeks. So you manage to figure out who it was going to be. There's something really deviant about that. There's something really perverse about that. Let them figure out who they are. Maybe they'll make mistakes along the way. But so what? Those mistakes will also be part of a process. In Beis R' Hashem, True leadership means the capacity, in a certain way, to follow their lead. To learn from them as much as we're teaching them to learn from them. In that way, all the misaprios makarv on the Torah.